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I'm Jus' Saying...

Inspiriation Lyrics of the DAY!!

  • Inspiriation Lyrics of the DAY!!
    I Believe

    I have my mansion now, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    I'll have me mansion now, Oh
    I Believe, I believe just what he said


    I'll do all things through Christ, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    I'll do all things through Christ, Oh
    I Believe, I believe just what he said


    He shall supply my need, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    He shall supply my need, Oh
    I Believe, I believe just what he said


    BRIDGE I:

    By faith I believe it, By faith I receive it
    By faith I can have it, By faith I can share it
    I believe just what he said


    I have my mansion now, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    I'll have me mansion now, Oh
    I Believe, I believe just what he said

    He worked it out for me, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    He worked it out for me, Oh
    I Believe, I believe just what he said


    Bridge II:

    By faith I will know it, By faith I will show it
    By faith I will bare it, and now I'll declare
    I believe just what he said


    I have my mansion now, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    I'll have me mansion now, Oh
    I Believe, I believe just what he said

    I Believe, I Believe
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    I Believe, I Believe
    I Believe, I believe just what he said


    He loosed the guilty stain, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe, I Believe
    He loosed the guilty stain, Oh
    I Believe, I Believe just what he said

    Christian Music Lyrics by: Gospel Music

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22 January 2009

Comments

Hi DJBA,

While I wouldn't equate AIDS with the destruction of S&G and don't know anything about the guy you are referring to, I'd read the other references to Sodom as well before concluding that God annihilated two cities over a little selfishness and bad manners. That is partially true but there is more to the story.

For starters, read just one more verse in Ezekiel: Ezekiel 16:50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

I'm pretty sure the word "detestable" matches up to Lev. 18:22.

Read 2 Peter 2:6-9 and see if that sounds like a case of bad manners: "if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment."

Jude 7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

Grace & peace,
Neil

Dear Sir,

Inhospitality or Homosexuality?: The mantra of the LGBT community is that the sin of the Sodomites et al was INHOSPITALITY—not HOMOSEXUALITY. (Gen. 19:1-26) But Lot, as an inhabitant of Sodom, was very hospitable. (Gen. 19:1-3; see also Heb. 13:1) In virtually the exact same situation in Jesus’ day involving inhospitality and a Samaritan village, nuking the natives was not a consideration—insofar as the Lord was concerned. The account reads: “They came to a Samaritan village to make arrangements for [Jesus’] hospitality. But when the Samaritans learned that his destination was Jerusalem, they refused hospitality. When the disciples James and John learned of it, they said, ‘Master, do you want us to call a bolt of lightning down out of the sky and incinerate them?’ Jesus turned on them: ‘Of course not!’ And they traveled on to another village.” (Luke 9:52-56; The Message Bible) Instead of the Samaritans being nuked, the disciples were rebuked.

No, God did not punished inhospitality with divine fire from heaven in one instance but elected not to do so in another. Inconsistency is neither a signature of the Almighty God Jehovah, nor of his Son Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that Jehovah does not change (Mal. 3:6), and that ‘Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.’ (Heb. 13:8)

With all due respect, sir, your exegesis, epexegesis, and hermeneutics leave much to be desired. And as for my socio-political motivation, I'd also say your crystal-ball gazing, heart reading powers are also substandard.

Respectfully, dear brother.

Dr. Firpo Carr

Hello Neil:

You wrote: “I'd read the other references to Sodom as well before concluding that God annihilated two cities over a little selfishness and bad manners."

I would not and did not suggest that God destroyed those cities for “selfishness and bad manners” and as you pointed out, there are clearly scriptures that support "sexual immorality" as an agitating factor for that Judgement, BUT that would include fornication and adultry which the author of the article in question seems to convienently IGNORE.

I posited that Ezekiel 16:49 clearly states the sins were lack of concern for the needy, you further cement this by quoting verse 50, as this being detestable before God.

Looking at scripture overall, we see that forgetting the “widow and the orphan” is detestable to the Lord our Father. This is a theme throughout the Old Testament.

Look at Isaiah 58:10-11: “And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.”

Clearly blessings come by aiding the poor.

1st John 3:17
“But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?”

If we love God, we take care of the needy.

BUT more to the point, there are specific punishments and judgments that come from NOT helping the poor. Look at

Malachi 3:5:

“And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Wow. Judgment, as He Judged Sodom (Ezekial 16.49) for these things.

This is much more serious than simply “bad manners” and a sin that even this nation is pretty guilty of.

Hello Dr. Carr:

Thank you for commenting. Again, as I said to Neil, I was not submitting INHOSPITALITY for HOMOSEXUALITY.

God punished Sodom cheifly and clearly as identified in scripture for their INDIFFERENCE to the POOR and NEEDY, simple as that. There are clearly scriptures that support "sexual immorality" as an agitating factor for that Judgement, as Neil pointed out, but that includes fornication and adultry, which you seem to leave out of your analysis for whatever reason.

I am glad you brought up Malachi, as it clearly reinforces this biblical principle. As I quoted to

Malachi 3.5: “And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Wow. Judgment for oppressing workers and turning aside the stranger and ignoring the widow and the orphan, as He Judged Sodom (Ezekiel 16.49) for these things. This is much more serious than simply “bad manners” and a sin that even this nation is pretty guilty of.

As for my assessment of your socio-political motives, I can only go by what seems to be inferred and implied by your writings, you can feel free to clear that up if you posit that I am wrong in my conclusion.

In any case, if there is anything the Church or those of us who call ourselves followers of Christ should be VERY CLEAR on, as scripture is very clear on, is that indifference to the poor, the widow, the orphan or the alien to our country, is CLEARLY something that brings God’s judgment, and did so to Sodom. GREED, simple as that, not “Bad Manners”

Dear Sir,

You wrote: “God punished Sodom cheifly and clearly as identified in scripture for their INDIFFERENCE to the POOR and NEEDY, simple as that.”

Actually, Genesis 13:13 says “the men of Sodom were bad and were gross sinners against Jehovah.” The sin of these “gross sinners” was sexual in nature, not “indifference to the poor and needy” as you erroneously assert. We’re told at Genesis 18:20 that “The cry of complaint about Sodom and Gomorrah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy.” Again, those who neglected or were indifferent to the poor and needy have NEVER, to the best of my knowledge, been described as “gross sinners” whose sin “is very heavy” anywhere in Scripture.

Furthermore, that the sin was inescapably sexual in nature can be seen from Genesis 19:4, 5 where we read: But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They shouted to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!’” (New Living Bible) Of course, we know that male-on-male sex was wrong and incurred the death penalty (Lev. 18:22; 20:13), hence, the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah, and surrounding cities received death for their perversion. Unless I’ve overlooked it, “indifference,” as you state, “to the poor and needy,” was not a capital offense under the Mosaic Law.

That homosexuality was at the center can be surmised from Jude’s words when he wrote: “So too Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and GONE OUT AFTER FLESH FOR UNNATURAL USE.” (Jude 7) Jude, the brother of Jesus, here condemns homosexuality just as the apostle Paul does at Romans 1:26-28 and 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (See also 1 Timothy 1:10.)

As regards other references to Sodom in the Holy Writ, the Jewish prophet Ezekiel, and every other prophet employed by God to pen the Tanakh, was under the Mosaic Law. This is what they adhered to. Again, in that Law or Torah, homosexuality was specifically condemned. Neither Ezekiel nor any of the other prophets contradicts what Moses wrote. Instead, in the case of Ezekiel, he merely adds to the list of things the inhabitants of Sodom (and Samaria) were guilty of. Regrettably, you’ve substituted out the PRIMARY reason the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (and others) were destroyed by God.

In fact, you further write: “There are clearly scriptures that support ‘sexual immorality’ as an agitating factor for that Judgement, as Neil pointed out, but that includes fornication and adultry, which you seem to leave out of your analysis for whatever reason. I am glad you brought up Malachi, as it clearly reinforces this biblical principle.”
First, I did not bring up Malachi. Second, the Greek word for fornication (porneia) includes both homosexual and heterosexual sex. As demonstrated above, the preference of the Sodomites and company was the former, ‘going out after flesh for unnatural use.’ This is obviously homosexual sex since heterosexual sex is most certainly NOT “unnatural.” You assert—erroneously I might add—that I omitted the discussion of “fornication and adultery” from my analysis. If you read all seven of my article on same-sex relationships you’d be in a better position to say what I have and have not omitted.

In conclusion, my motivation? To spew truth—Biblical truth. (Thanks for asking instead of speculating.) It’s that simple. I welcome your response.

Respectfully,

Dr. Firpo Carr

DJBA, I'm not sure your point. I'll grant you (or anyone else) that I may not know the details of WHY God destroyed two cities. Especially when He didn't destroy other places that I would consider just as sinful.

But it doesn't change the facts of sin. Homosexuality is a sin. So is ignoring the needs of the poor. Which is greater? I'm not sure it matters, sin is sin.

Sometimes sinners bear the burdens of their sin. It doesn't mean we should ignore them. Aids can be the result of sin. The "victim" contracted the disease from his/her sinful acts.It doesn't mean we should love the person any less, or help the person any less.

Lately, I've been working with some who are poor and needy. They are that way because of sin (some would say "bad choices"). I'm still helping them.

So, I guess I'm not sure of your point at all. Are you saying homosexuality is ok? Or just that it's not as bad as ignoring the poor?

Hello Dr. Carr:

You wrote: “….my motivation? To spew truth—Biblical truth. (Thanks for asking instead of speculating.) It’s that simple. I welcome your response”

That is very well that you seek to give truth, biblical truth, so we seem to have a common motivation.

We seem to agree that Gen 13:13 communicates that the PEOPLE of Sodom and Gomorrah were gross sinners, you assert that this “gross” sin was “sexual”, I assert, that the reason is what God told prophet Ezekiel it was, again:

16.49 “Ezekiel 16.49 (NRSV):
“This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.”

So maybe indifference to the poor is NOT “gross or excessive” to "YOU", however, this appears to be God’s expressed attitude regarding INDIFFERENCE to the poor, if you disagree you disagree with God’s communication to prophet Ezekiel, not me.

Further, let us take a look Gen 13:13. The version you quoted: “the men of Sodom were bad and were gross sinners against Jehovah”

“Gross” being EXCESSIVE or as we say “over the top”, “men” being “HUMANITY” not “males”

Clarified clearly when we look at Gen 13:13 in the KJV: “But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.”

1. The Hebrew word for “MEN: is “Enowsh” meaning: a mortal, or man as a race, humanity, mortals.

2. The Hebrew word used in this scripture for “gross” or “exceedingly” is: “m'od” meaning: diligently, especially, exceeding, vehemently; by implication, wholly, speedily, etc.

So, your initial presupposition that “God specifically targeted the cities of Sodom because of homosexual activity. (Gen. 18:20, 21; 19:24, 28) Instead of using HIV/AIDS, he nuked them. He used a purging fire to eradicate homosexuals and their diseases”is predicated on an improper and incorrect interpretation of the scripture you used then and the ones you are using now.

You see Dr. Carr, the problem is not that you could not make an exegetical argument that homosexual sex is SIN, the problem is that you seem to weigh this sin as somehow being more “sinful” than indifference to the poor, which God clarified to ISRAEL on many, many occasions as being UNACCEPTABLE, and further, in direct opposition to what God expressed to his servant Prophet Ezekiel, you posit that "homosexual sin" NOT the "pride and lack of concern for the poor" He expresses to His servant is the cause of Sodom's destruction, that is where you divide with Ezekiel, and that is my point of contention with your asssertion.

You have conveniently ignored and trivialized how serious the issue of INDIFFERENCE TO THE POOR is to God, and you unjustly and exponentially magnify one specific sexual sin, ignoring adultery and fornication which are also serious sins worthy of judgment in Gods eyes.

When you pick one particular sin, such as homosexuality, and elevate it above other sexual sin (i.e. fornication, adultery), blame AIDS, hurricanes and 9-11 attacks etc on that particular sin, then you do a disservice to the Gospel and in fact push people away from the faith. It is one thing to identify sin, it is quite another to scapegoat a group of people when ALL HAVE SINNED and Come Short of the Glory of GOD.

Jesus mentioned the poor quite a few times in the scriptures, Jesus feed the hungry, Jesus showed compassion and mercy to sinners while he instructed and exemplified to repent and live righteously.

You my good man, simply lack that COMPASSION or you ignore it for whatever reason to try to vilify people in sins you take particular exception to.
Here is truth, there was a whole lot of sin going on in Sodom and Gomorrah, sins that are similar to sins that have gone on since that time.

God identified the “guilt” of Sodom to prophet Ezekiel quite clearly, simply and plainly. You can minimize the seriousness of indifference to the poor till the cows come home, doesn’t change the fact that it is CLEARLY communicated as the guilt of Sodom by GOD HIMSELF to HIS prophet.

If it is TRUTH you truly seek to know and to share, I pray your understanding, of our Father, the Most High God, El Shaddai Elohim Adonai Shekinu, by His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, which is the Holy Ghost, in the name of His Son, our Salvation, JESUS, Yeshuyah HaMoshiach Adonai Shekinu.

Randy:

“But it doesn't change the facts of sin. Homosexuality is a sin. So is ignoring the needs of the poor. Which is greater? I'm not sure it matters, sin is sin.”

True, I’m not suggesting different. BUT the author I quoted elevates the sexual sin of homosexuality as the primary agitating factor causing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. GOD TOLD PROPHET Ezekiel explicitly:

Ezekiel 16.49 “This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.”

This is being minimized by the author, that whiich is CLEARLY expressed by God. The issue is not IF homsexuality, adultry or fornication are "sins", the issue is, why does this author insist that God's judgementw as predicated on that sine and not the sin which God clearly expresses to prophet Ezekiel?

Dear Sir,

Briefly, indifference to the poor was not a capital punishment under the Mosaic law; Homosexuality was. So, Jehovah God elevates this sin above neglecting the poor.
Aside from mentioning the other things found in Ezekiel 16:49, you seemed to have overlooked verse 50, which reads:

"And they continued to be haughty AND to carry on a DETESTABLE thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw fit."

Abraham couldn't identify even five righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah, so, the poor you speak of were wicked men who no doubt were homosexual also. God nuked EVERYONE in these and surrounding cities save Lot and his family. (His wife of course was turned to salt.)

So, you've effectively painted yourself in a corner. The poor must have been in the "dependent towns," not in Sodom and Gomorrah proper.

I'll give you the last response. It appears that we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Respectfully,

Dr. Firpo Carr

Hello again Dr. Carr:

You wrote: “Briefly, indifference to the poor was not a capital punishment under the Mosaic law; Homosexuality was. So, Jehovah God elevates this sin above neglecting the poor”.

Though I am not sure how you conclude that the Torah is or was authoritative to the pre-Israelite / pre-Mosaic law people of Sodom and Gomorrah, I am glad you brought up the Torah and the 613 mitzvahs therein. According to Jewish tradition, the spiritual benefit of giving to the poor is so great that a beggar actually does the giver a favor by giving a person the opportunity to perform tzedakah (1). Looking at the Torah, specifically Exodus 22:22-24 we get a general idea of Gods’ attitude about indifference to the poor and the needy:

“Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.”

God seems to be communicating some pretty fierce consequence here, further when we look at Deuteronomy 27:19 we see:.

“Cursed is he who perverts the justice due to the sojourner or the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow. All the people shall say, Amen”

Again very clear.

Dr. Carr, the question I put before you is not if homosexuality is a sin, or even if perhaps that was part of the “sin” of Sodom, it is clearly NOT the sin that God said to His prophet that he took Sodom to task for

You posit that since I quoted Ezekiel 16:49:

“So, you've effectively painted yourself in a corner. The poor must have been in the "dependent towns," not in Sodom and Gomorrah proper.”

Not at all Dr. Carr. Nowhere did I posit that those who they OPPRESSED where IN Sodom. I posited that their SIN that GOD says was the cause of their Judgment is what God told HIS servant the Prophet Ezekiel, and that sin is not defined as homosexuality BUT the sin of Indifference as they prospered.

The poor could have been visitors or sojourners, people that they could have even kicked out of the city after abusing and using them for labor or other types of slavery, they could have lied and stole wages, or they could have watched as other cities suffered while they prospered, as many do in this country as they protest sins they see in others while they commit sins worthy of God’s wraith themselves, in NOT showing compassion to the widow, the orphan, the alien, the poor.

You are correct Dr. Carr, we will have to agree to disagree, however, in willfully ignoring how seriously God takes the issue of mistreatment of the poor, you are ignoring HIM not me.

As I said, I pray you well, thank you for a cordial exchange.

(1) http://www.jewfaq.org/tzedakah.htm

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